The law-breaking fringe survivalist seems to be mostly absent from today's survival/preppers, but there's still that element out there. You know, the basement workshop, "got these parts at the gun show" kind of tinkerer putting together a suppressor, saw down a shotgun or piece together a full auto SMG. Heck, Rawles of Survivalblog has the characters in both of his books make up fake IDs and manufacture illegal firearms far before things go bad.
I'll be among the first to agree that today's federal gun laws are stupid. But they're laws none-the-less, and the consequences for breaking them are pretty harsh. Felony record, fines, time in prison...life devastating kind of stuff. Same goes for falsifying identification, making explosives without proper licensing and so on.
Yes, if you're smart about it, the chances of getting caught are very low. However, the consequences of getting caught with something far outweigh the potential benefits. And that's not to get into the question about moral obligation for abiding by the laws of the communities we live within.
If you want to get into things like suppressors, full auto and short barrels, you can do so legally. You just need to go through the BATF approval process. I haven't personally gone through the process of getting BATF approval and the needed tax stamps, but from all accounts it requires a clean record, patience as well as a bit of extra cash ($200 for most) to get it done. This is the way to go. It doesn't risk felony charges, fines and a lengthy stay to Club Don't-Drop-the-Soap. After receiving BATF approval, you can legally take possession of the firearm or suppressor.
There is certainly quite a bit of value in knowing how to modify/manufacture firearms of all kinds, and that kind of knowledge could be very valuable in a TEOTWAWKI situation. I would be very cautious in trying to use any of the knowledge in a less-than-legal way, but in there's no law against simply knowing how to do something (at least not yet). There are a number of good sources out there that are "for educational purposes only."
Anyways, don't be stupid. There's really zero point to risking ruining your life on manufacturing some illegal gun in your home workshop, especially when you can go through the proper channels and purchase it legally. If you're so inclined, knowing how to fabricate a silencer, modify a gun for full auto or build one from scratch could be valuable in a TEOTWAWKI scenario, but I would not do put that knowledge to build something illegal. It's just not worth it!
Nutnfancy would probably say "save it for WROL."
ReplyDeleteI have zero respect for the arbitrary legal thrashing of the state, but so long as I can play within the system, while working to improve that system, I will.
ReplyDeleteI love to learn about and build knowledge of improvised weapons, but there are a few projects that I'm willing to put off while we work to improve the rules.
"Rawles of Survivalblog has the characters in both of his books make up fake IDs and manufacture illegal firearms far before things go bad."
ReplyDeletePeople did that for real in Idaho and Montana back in the 90's. Most of them are probably getting out of jail around now.
Michael -
ReplyDeleteI know :)! That's the law breaking fringe I mention. Same goes for the revolutionary militia types, bomb builders, etc. Don't break the law!
Don't break the Law. In case of TEOTWAWKI, you die there.
ReplyDeletesorry, i forget
ReplyDeletethere => prison
I agree with TEOTWAKI here, breaking the law is a big no, for the big reason that getting yourself in jail is not going to be good for preparedness.
ReplyDeleteI would say that having information about how to do stuff is important and sometimes running limited experiments just at the limit of the law is important to sharpen your skills.
But information is still dangerous, because if the police find information about how to build a bomb in your possession they might try to piggy back on something else to screw you.
So this is one more thing to keep in mind.
Sorry for the double post, but there is something relevant to the subject @ hand :-)
ReplyDeleteThere was a website called rogue science, which had forums in which the kind of militia type TEOTWAKI refered too had discussion about combat, explosives and stuff of the kind.
The website was taken down by the DoD because they were declared ''Acessory of terrorism'' by providing ''material support'' ... so be careful on the information you hold.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090703171109AAN3nvN
Ugly Rooster
ReplyDeleteFrom a law enforcement perspective, there are two things to consider...
First, is what you are doing illegal, by state or federal statute? I said STATUTE. That means Law. Before you do something questionable, our possess something questionable, look up the Law. If evidence, probable clause is developed... You go to jail.
I know, there is the question of constitutional federal jurisdiction, but no matter, jurisdiction will be exercised over you regardless. So tread lightly.
That brings us to consideration number two...
Secondly, consider the alphabet soup of BATFE, FBI, CIA, SO ON... In addition to Homeland Security and the reams of revolving federal legislation and executive arbitrary edicts. None of uss can keep up with all that confetti. Don't risk it by guessing or using some clandestine maneuver that you hear from a paintball buddy.
Okay, listen. Most of that stuff is either too expensive, will blow YOU up, or is not efficient anyway. Suppose you do make an auto fire AR, it would put you in the poor house to shoot it. And if you don't train extensively with it, you have not the skill required to shoot it effectively. You can build skill that out modes the need for full auto anyway. For example, Viking Tactical put out a drill called the 2x2x2 Drill. The guys I shoot with can all do the drill in less than 1.49 seconds when warned up. Our average time is 1.70 seconds. Our split between double taps is almost always less than 0.20 seconds. That rate of fire is faster than some sub machine guns. Even if full auto could be bought at Wally World, basic gunfighter skills should be developed before stepping up in weaponry, right? Sort of like a fella that cant hit a pumpkin at five yards with a single shot .22 would have no business buying and carrying a 1911.
So, we should crawl, then walk, then run, and maybe fly; if you have the time to train. But lets leave space travel to the astronauts. Happy training!
The bottom line is the law is still the law until the lawmakers we elect and send to the state and federal capitols chance them. You will do your family no good being a convicted felon or locked up in prison somewhere. There are plenty of legal options out there that you can obtain that will serve your needs. While full auto is fun it will never replace skill!
ReplyDeleteAlso I noticed that with Rawles and his books, but Rawles falls into the Sovereign citizen movement which is another whole post in itself. In Survivors, the F16 pilot would not barrow a plan to save his daughter, but would make an illegal submachine gun and suppressor before SHTF.
TEOTWAWKI-
ReplyDeleteI lived in Spokane WA in the 90's and saw a lot of that stuff. It was crazy.
There are plenty of stupid laws and try as you might you can only so much you can do to change/effect the laws you have to abide by. But the fact is the government is bigger and stronger than you are. They might be stupid and oppressive but typically if you fight them your going to loose. It might not be fair but that's the way it is--whoever has the biggest stick makes the rules. As long as the US has the cops, jails, aircraft carriers, and nukes you're going to loose unless you play nice.
ReplyDeleteIt is my observation that most people ignore laws they think are stupid. The real thing to look at is the risk involved. A fine or probation or embarassment are very different from several years in prison.
ReplyDeleteLets say you don't want to wear a seatbelt. The legal risk (sure you might die in a crash but the odds are relatively low for any single trip and that is another discussion)is that you will get pulled over and get a ticket. Not a huge deal really.
Lets say you like marijuana. You have a stable long term friend who has a couple plants and sells you a bit now and then, has for decades. You use it discretely at home. Odds you will get arrested are almost zero. The consequence if you do get caught isn't good but if we are talking small quantities it will be probation or a fine or something. For a functional adult being embarassed and maybe losing a job would be the real consequences. However it really isn't that big of a deal.
Now lets say you saw the barrel on a Remington 870 down to 13 inches. Odds you will get caught if you are not completely stupid (take it to a public range, show it to a stranger, etc) are slim. However if you do get caught you are going to prison. You will then be a felon which has serious life implications as in you are basically screwed. To me the juice just isn't worth the squeeze in breaking gun laws.
No comment
ReplyDeleteInteresting points. The problem is, in a TEOTWAWKI scenario the skills to manufacture/modify/repair weapons of all kinds would be of very high value, and having the experience will beat having the theoretical knowledge every time. Maybe a Gunsmith license would help...
ReplyDeleteAlso, what about preppers in countrys with much stricter gun laws? Where there is no way for any civilian to legally own a good rifle/shotgun? In such a situation, would you rather see how far you can get with legal weapons and stick to those, or, if legal options really suck, look a bit further?